Quotes from Experts

Automation in the workplace

SciLine reaches out to our network of scientific experts and poses commonly asked questions about newsworthy topics.

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Striking dockworkers returned to work on October 4, but negotiations continue between the International Longshoremen’s Association and the United States Maritime Alliance over work rules such as what types of automation will be allowed under the new contract. SciLine asked three experts how new technologies at ports and other job sites are changing the American workplace.


What does research show about the relationship between technological change and the destruction and creation of jobs?


Christopher Andrews, Ph.D.

“Well, the historical evidence shows that the effects are mixed. Technological innovation, automation eliminates or reduces the need for certain kinds of skills. It complements and enhances other skills—and in some cases creates a demand for new or additional sorts of skills.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Christopher Andrews, Ph.D.
Associate professor of sociology, Drew University

Morgan Frank, Ph.D.

“Research shows that technology doesn’t typically destroy jobs wholesale but rather automates parts of jobs instead.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Morgan Frank, Ph.D.
Assistant professor of informatics and networked systems, University of Pittsburgh

Geraldine Knatz, Ph.D.

“So in my research on automated terminals, I found that it was very difficult to get labor data. I mean, we really wanted to know how many jobs were in the terminal before automation was put in place, and how many jobs after. And that data was just not available. We were not able to get it. But what we did find is that the terminal operators were driven by a number of factors to try and automate the terminal. One of them, which is very important, was to reduce labor costs. They also wanted to improve efficiency. And the terminals on the East Coast, actually, one of their primary drivers was to be able to efficiently handle the big ships that were anticipated as a result of widening the Panama Canal in 2014.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Geraldine Knatz, Ph.D.
Professor of the practice of policy and engineering, University of Southern California

What factors determine whether a new technology will reduce the need for labor, increase the need for labor, or change the nature of work?


Christopher Andrews, Ph.D.

“Well, there’s often several factors. One factor is the scope of implementation. For example, most supermarkets only have four to six self-checkout lanes, which really isn’t significant enough to have a significant effect on overall demand for labor.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Christopher Andrews, Ph.D.
Associate professor of sociology, Drew University

Morgan Frank, Ph.D.

“To determine if a new technology will increase or decrease the amount of human labor required is really a contextual question. It depends how many other steps there are downstream of the technology in the pipeline required to finish the product or service. If the technology makes a middle part of that process much more productive, you may actually need more workers to complete other parts of the process that complement the technology. And this can lead to more employment—potentially for workers who can shift a little bit what parts of the whole firm’s productivity pipeline they’re doing. On the other hand, it may be that technology automates a real large proportion of the tasks necessary, and that is the case where a complete substitution might occur.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Morgan Frank, Ph.D.
Assistant professor of informatics and networked systems, University of Pittsburgh

Geraldine Knatz, Ph.D.

“The factors that are driving terminal operators to look at automation are really a couple. First of all, on the East Coast, when the Panama Canal expanded and the bigger ships were able to get through, a lot of the three automated terminals there, one of their major factors for deciding to—driving them to automate was being able to handle those big ships efficiently. When we did our study of global terminals, the biggest factor over all the terminals was improved safety. There are times when longshore workers are injured or even killed on the job, it is not—there’s some risks associated with some of the things that they do. And so obviously, when you eliminate human factors the risk of injury to a human goes down. So, globally, safety was a big driver.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Geraldine Knatz, Ph.D.
Professor of the practice of policy and engineering, University of Southern California

Are there sometimes unintended consequences of introducing automation into an industry?


Christopher Andrews, Ph.D.

“Yes, there can be unintended consequences, both positive and negative. A positive example would be James Bessen’s research on the introduction of ATMs—automated teller machines—in the banking industry. And contrary to what was predicted, it didn’t result in the elimination of bank tellers, bank clerks. What it actually did was it freed them up to perform other tasks that were in fact of greater value to banks: providing customer service, servicing mortgages, small business loans. So there can be positive unanticipated consequences of technological innovation in the workplace. An example of a negative unanticipated consequence would be the introduction of self-checkout lanes and the unintended consequence of increased shoplifting from customers. So rather than being able to reduce the number of staff, stores had to maintain the amount of staffing, which ended up making self-checkout lanes less effective than they were intended to be in terms of reducing labor costs.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Christopher Andrews, Ph.D.
Associate professor of sociology, Drew University

Morgan Frank, Ph.D.

“So there can be a lot of unintended consequences when new technology is introduced to an industry. It’s often really hard for researchers or for technologists to guess at all the possible use cases for a new technology. And this is really well reflected in thoughtful research on technology and the future of work, where researchers grapple with the ambiguity of when technology will just remove wages or remove employment opportunities—or instead enhance a worker and make them more productive within the same job.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Morgan Frank, Ph.D.
Assistant professor of informatics and networked systems, University of Pittsburgh

Geraldine Knatz, Ph.D.

“Based on our survey results of more than half of the automated terminals around the globe, many of the terminal operators were not anticipating that—it wasn’t even a factor to consider the truck turn time in their terminal when they made that decision. But they were pleasantly surprised at the fact that, oh, the trucks were able to get in and get out much quicker. And so if you’re a trucker, and your salary is based on how many boxes you can pick up and deliver, you want to get in and out of that terminal as quickly as possible. And an added benefit that many of the global operators was anticipating, but not to the extent that they really improved their truck turn time.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Geraldine Knatz, Ph.D.
Professor of the practice of policy and engineering, University of Southern California

Are there specific factors in port operations that will influence how deploying new technology will change the nature of work? 


Christopher Andrews, Ph.D.

“The two key factors that come to mind are collective bargaining and the unions, which means there is going to involve laws and regulations that will govern how technology is used in the workplace at the ports. And the second is how this technology may allow workers at the port to not only be more productive, but also perhaps perform other tasks that have value in the port—for example, perhaps expanding the screening of containers or improving the service relationships between the shipping companies and the port authority.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Christopher Andrews, Ph.D.
Associate professor of sociology, Drew University

Morgan Frank, Ph.D.

“I expect there’s a lot of ways that new technology can impact the work that’s going on at U.S. ports. For example, I could imagine advances in computer vision, autonomous vehicles, and a more fluid way to communicate with robotics, what you want them to do, leading to a real shift in how we move around big containers within the port. Now, of course, what this means for workers is a little bit unclear. At first it might seem like a real substitution and a loss of employment for longshoremen, but maybe this could also lead to a need for more of the last-mile work required to get things out of the big shipping containers and out of the port and onto trucks. We’ll have to see how it plays out.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Morgan Frank, Ph.D.
Assistant professor of informatics and networked systems, University of Pittsburgh

Geraldine Knatz, Ph.D.

“You know, in the whole logistics change of moving international cargo from one country to another, the ocean carriers are kind of the big fish in the pond. They will—when you’re working at a port or at a terminal or even the port authority you want to have as much cargo going through your port as possible because that generates revenue for you. So you want those big ocean carriers. You want those ships to come into your port. Some of those ocean carriers will basically tell a terminal operator you have to meet these standards—they call them KPIs, efficiency factors—and if you don’t meet them, we’re going to go someplace else. So that puts a lot of pressure on the terminal operator to try and be responsive to what their customer is asking them—which is the ocean carrier. And some of those ocean carriers own the terminal operating companies, but they still will tell the terminal operating company, hey, we want you to meet these levels of efficiency.” (Posted October 4, 2024 | Download Video)

Geraldine Knatz, Ph.D.
Professor of the practice of policy and engineering, University of Southern California

Christopher Andrews, Ph.D.


Morgan Frank, Ph.D.


Geraldine Knatz, Ph.D.

Christopher Andrews, Ph.D.
Associate professor of sociology, Drew University

None.

Morgan Frank, Ph.D.
Assistant professor of informatics and networked systems, University of Pittsburgh

None.

Geraldine Knatz, Ph.D.
Professor of the practice of policy and engineering, University of Southern California

Dr. Knatz is a port specialist who was funded by the University of Southern California Metrans Transportation Center to conduct a study on container terminal automation. She is the prior director of the Port of Los Angeles and oversaw the development of the first automated terminal on the U.S. West Coast.